Richard Heinberg's Talk
Richard Heinberg is one of the few Peak Oil educators who comes from a vaguely radical perspective, and this is why he is very influential to me. So I was happy to have the priviledge of seeing his presentation at the Eugene Hilton tonight entitled "Peak Oil: Challenges and Opportunities at the end of Cheap Petroleum." I was pleasantly surprised to find that a rather large ballroom in the Hilton was filled to capacity with probably over a thousand people who came to see Heinberg. I even believe some people were turned away once the place was filled.
He was introduced by Eugene's mayor ______. Ms. ______ gave a very warm welcome to Heinberg which bordered on ass-kissing, and towards the end seemed to be giving a sales pitch about how great Eugene is. Fortunately, she wasn't long. Heinberg himself came up and warmed up the crowd with a few jokes, including one about how he doesn't know whether people in Eugene are lucky to have such an awesome mayor, or just smart to have elected her. Yuck.
Then came the real part. Heinberg basically just summed up Peak Oil for the crowd, and I learned little, but it was still great. He mentioned the US production peak in 1970; he showed how the supply shocks temporarily reduced demand in the 1970s; he emphasized the fact that no one exactly knows when the global peak will happen but it inevitably will; he talked about the probable consequences of the global peak; and he dismissed the notion that any currently known energy source will in any way replace fossil fuels. His message is "prepare for the worst, just like in any other crises management." It was especially interesting when he mentioned the book that he is currently working on called "The Oil Depletion Protocol" which calls for oil producing nations to agree to restrain production in agreement with consuming nations to restrain demand. I don't see such a proposal being very effective, but if it actually were implemented and agreed to I believe it would have some (slight) positive effects. But the major point is that, locally, we ourselves need to deal with these problems...
...Which brings me to the question I asked in order to take advantage of the Q&A session. I said, "I know you've written for anarchist periodicals in the past, so I was wondering what role you see anarchist philosophy playing in the whole peak oil picture?" His response was that he sees anarchism as the belief that people can come together to make their own decisions, and that this has obvious connections to the type of world we should wish to create after the age of cheap oil. We basically have two options after the crisis, he said: some sort of society loosely constructed around anarchist principles, or fascism. He was very blunt.
I'd also like to add that I was very pleased with the way he dealt with an old hippie asking a stupid question. Some guy with crazy hair wearing tye-dye came up to the mic and said something along the lines of "There are no economic, political, or social solutions to these problems. So could you address the need for spirituality?" (I groaned loudly.) Heinberg told him that we are addressing material problems and it is dangerous to drift away from reality in favor of the spiritual. To be more consoling, he added that in the future there might be opportunites to become closer to nature and that this could have healing effects. I concur.
He was introduced by Eugene's mayor ______. Ms. ______ gave a very warm welcome to Heinberg which bordered on ass-kissing, and towards the end seemed to be giving a sales pitch about how great Eugene is. Fortunately, she wasn't long. Heinberg himself came up and warmed up the crowd with a few jokes, including one about how he doesn't know whether people in Eugene are lucky to have such an awesome mayor, or just smart to have elected her. Yuck.
Then came the real part. Heinberg basically just summed up Peak Oil for the crowd, and I learned little, but it was still great. He mentioned the US production peak in 1970; he showed how the supply shocks temporarily reduced demand in the 1970s; he emphasized the fact that no one exactly knows when the global peak will happen but it inevitably will; he talked about the probable consequences of the global peak; and he dismissed the notion that any currently known energy source will in any way replace fossil fuels. His message is "prepare for the worst, just like in any other crises management." It was especially interesting when he mentioned the book that he is currently working on called "The Oil Depletion Protocol" which calls for oil producing nations to agree to restrain production in agreement with consuming nations to restrain demand. I don't see such a proposal being very effective, but if it actually were implemented and agreed to I believe it would have some (slight) positive effects. But the major point is that, locally, we ourselves need to deal with these problems...
...Which brings me to the question I asked in order to take advantage of the Q&A session. I said, "I know you've written for anarchist periodicals in the past, so I was wondering what role you see anarchist philosophy playing in the whole peak oil picture?" His response was that he sees anarchism as the belief that people can come together to make their own decisions, and that this has obvious connections to the type of world we should wish to create after the age of cheap oil. We basically have two options after the crisis, he said: some sort of society loosely constructed around anarchist principles, or fascism. He was very blunt.
I'd also like to add that I was very pleased with the way he dealt with an old hippie asking a stupid question. Some guy with crazy hair wearing tye-dye came up to the mic and said something along the lines of "There are no economic, political, or social solutions to these problems. So could you address the need for spirituality?" (I groaned loudly.) Heinberg told him that we are addressing material problems and it is dangerous to drift away from reality in favor of the spiritual. To be more consoling, he added that in the future there might be opportunites to become closer to nature and that this could have healing effects. I concur.
49 Comments:
Oh Heinberg. Really "The Party's Over" is all that anyone really should read on peak oil, it makes most of the other stuff redundant. Did you end up having to pay?
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Jake R., at 11:47 PM
As to the old hippie, im not so sure you shoud dismiss his question. Though his appearance and motive may have detracted from his question, I think that he brings up a valid point. Because really, what is the oil crisis but a crisis of desire and opulance? We dont need oil to survive, we just need oil to survive in the current manner. The problem is material in that there isn't enough energy to go around, but at the same time the problem is spiritual because we have a harmful desire and dependance on cheap energy. I would venture that our dependance is a mental problem as much as it is a tangible problem. The question is, do we come up with an alternate source of energy in hopes of continuing our existance in a similar and comfortable manner, or do we plan an alternate existance set to be lived after there is no oil, or do we try to get rid of the need for more energy in the first place? Is it more important to heal the spiritual and mental aspects of our society to prevent disaster, or is it more important to be prepared to deal with the disaster after it has happened? Certainly is is much harder to prevent than to deal with, but what if the fall is so great that there is nothing good left in the world afterwards? I would say that we have an obligation to stop our harmful dependance, but you are right, we must always be ready for the worst. I just think that this problem is not without moral implications.
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Anonymous, at 11:58 PM
I suppose im not so much defending mr. tye-dye as much as his mention of spirituality made me think of the subject in a different way. I dont think that spirituality can "save" anything by itself, its not a solution, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't at least in part spiritual.
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Anonymous, at 12:04 AM
Well, rejecting spirituality outright is certainly called for. I don't think Heinberg does this, unfortunately. Since there is no such thing as a spirit, it makes little sense to speak of spirituality, matters relating to that are of little concern.
Dealing with the oil crisis isn't so much of a obligation as a rational act of self-interest: I don't want to starve to death. But, even though there will be many awful aspects of an "oil crash", there will be many beneficial decent aspects to it as well, it is up to us which ones will be accentuated.
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Jake R., at 12:08 AM
Well, I definitely did not like the way he said there is no solution and implied we should just be spiritual and ignore the consequences. It was horrendous.
As far as spirituality itself, I don't know. To an extent I think it is healthy to be in awe of powers that humanity will never be able to completely comprehend. To enjoy the stars on a clear night could be called spiritual. As long as people recognize that spirituality is not grounded in reality and do not neglect reality, I am fine with it.
Oh, and yes, we had to pay five dollars to get in. By "we," I mean Natty, Paul, and I.
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Sam, at 12:26 AM
Eugene's mayor is Kitty Piercy, and for a mayor, she seems pretty great. Chuck Hunt talked about Peak Oil in class today; apparently he had been there and asked how many of us had, several hands raised. Chuck noted that it's really going to be the most dramatic event that shapes our lifetime. He also said all this other great stuff, too. He even talked about postmodernism and how terrible it is. I don't understand his fixation on JFK's assassination, though...
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Unknown, at 10:16 AM
Sam.
Sounds like RH presentation was worth it. Ignore the pessimistic hippie. Spirituality...as long as there isn't a "preacher" doling it out I think our lives would become more spiritual. All "tribes" (I'm thinking NA here) well-being (full belly and what leads to that) had ties with that which surrounded them. To discount this connection as "QV" seems to feel must be done is to discount that which makes us human and which we will need to be more of in a Post Oil world...-KaW
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Anonymous, at 10:56 AM
I don't think we're going to ignore "QV" as he is one of our closest friends (what's with the abbreviations?). Anyway, if by "NA" you mean Native Americans (?), yes, they were spiritual, but I don't think modeling our society on past ("primitive") societies is such a great idea. So while I may not go as far as "QV" (by the way, I assume you're confusing him with the hippie at the speech, he is in no way a "pessimistic hippie") to say "rejecting spirituality outright is certainly called for," I personally am not very spiritual, and, if we are to be rational, we will address these "material" problems using material means (I might just call them "real world" problems, because I find religion/spirituality to be basically a fiction, you don't have to agree).
If you want to be spiritual, great. But it won't solve the world's problems.
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Unknown, at 12:01 PM
He's just using the Native Americans as an example of how spiriuality can be beneficially connected to material reality, Natty. After all, the belief in sacred spirits in everything in nature gives one a healthy respect for these things. And no one is calling for modeling society after "primitive" ones. Calm down, now.
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Sam, at 2:34 PM
As I said in the post, quite calmly, but of course you can’t tell that through a computer, “if you want to be spiritual, great,” and “you don’t have to agree.” This is far more moderate than Jake’s “rejecting spirituality outright is certainly called for,” and you didn’t tell him to calm down. Yeah, it’s fine if you want to be spiritual or whatever, but that shouldn’t cause you to ignore real world problems. I hope that’s the point we can all agree on .
I was just trying to defend Jake's position. Telling me to "calm down" doesn't make much sense.
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Unknown, at 3:33 PM
Yikes. "To an extent I think it is healthy to be in awe of powers that humanity will never be able to completely comprehend."
Nope, I think being in awe is always fundamentally a terrible practice, something that is never called for. Awe leads to nothing but submission, irrationality, and superstition. I do not see anything which, hypothetically at some point, humanity will never be able to comprehend. Whether doled out by a preacher or not, superstition always sucks. But whatevs, this really isn't super important. I think the disagreement here largely hinges on different interpretations of words, and even if it doesn't there isn't too much of a gap.
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Jake R., at 5:58 PM
Even if we could, we shouldn't try to be masters over nature. As a PART of nature, we are all in SUBMISSION to natural laws. Awe in this case is a recognition of this. So I see how types of spirituality can be healthy and beneficial.
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Sam, at 7:02 PM
meh. whatevs.
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Unknown, at 7:07 PM
As I said before, even in recognition of living within rather than over nature, I do not think that awe or submission is healthy; rationality certainly is though.
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Jake R., at 9:21 PM
I interpreted Guy's comment to be less about our definition of 'spirituality' as religion and more about our thought process. There are a lot of things that would make us resist the change that the oil problem will bring. If you look at the emotional side of things, cars/transportation have been integrated with love, freedom, power, and people don't want to give those up. Of course there are many influences on this topic I am only trying to say that I know I feel some absurd emotional attachment to the ability to drive somewhere and what goes along with that.
As far as the idea of being in awe, I think I am splitting hairs in saying this but there are things out there in nature and that are man-made that inspire a sense of awe. Seeing huge mountains in Montana was amazing and I would say awe inspiring. For me, the creation of some amazing computer part also excites me to the point of awe. Same with seeing some Gunther videos for the first time. My point being, there are some pretty wonderful/crazy things out there to see, I don't think appreciating those is a problem.
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Jon, at 12:31 AM
I believe that we can approach this discussion dialectically. As i'm sure, we can all appreciate the qualities of rational, logical thought, and the power it has to help the human/world condition. But also, i think that a "spititual" connection with our world, be it religious or merely sensational, is important in fostering a (as Sam said) respect for the material elements of nature. Spirituallity does not have to be "apart" from reality. At the same time, "awe" is not inherently submissive or detrimental; it depends on which meaning you attach to the word.
I think it comes down to respect: we need to respect our world more.
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Anonymous, at 2:30 PM
Ok, I understand what folks are saying, and I agree with and respect the points that have been made. I just don't like the term "spirituality" at all, to me it has too many religious and mystical connotations, as such I won't use it in a positive light. There is no such thing as a spirit! So why use a term like spirituality?
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Jake R., at 10:57 PM
how do you know there is no such thing as a spirit?
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Anonymous, at 1:23 AM
A spirit is generally understood to be "incorporeal consciousness", "a soul", or "the animating force within living beings". None of these things exist. Why? How do we know this? There has been absolutely no evidence of any such thing, actually, all evidence points to the contrary of such things existing. Therefore we must assume, given current knowledge that they don't exist. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. Logically, the evidence must be given by the one making the positive statement, it's nearly impossible to disprove a negative statement. Like, if someone said "prove that unicorns don't exist." You couldn't, you could provide all the evidence to the contrary showing that unicorns do not exist, but then that person saying that unicorns are a fact, could just say "well, that's cause we can't see them." So, rationally, you cannot ask a question like "how do you know that spirits don't exist?" Rather, the one saying that spirits do exist must prove so. That's a fairly fundamental logical truism.
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Jake R., at 2:42 AM
Your right, i was being an asshole. It seems we have come to a point where personal opinion is now in front of logic. From my perspective, the idea of a spirit is valid because of the propensity of other people who believe likewise. I know that i cant prove anything, but also you cant prove anything. Everyone thought the earth was flat, etc. before someone went around the world. It is a common rational view that god, the spirit, the soul, all the intangibles of our conciousness, dont exist. but accepted views are sometimes very wrong. And I think that statement can apply to both sides of the argument. So really, it doesnt matter whether or not we believe in their existance. My interest with the spiritual is its power to change history. Many times people have done horrible things in the name of god or something equally intangible, but other times it has done great good, so it does have weight, and really does it matter if it really exists? People will still go on believing in it, and its the people who are important.
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Anonymous, at 12:29 PM
If spirit is defined as the life force within humans, which most certainly exists, then spirit exists. It's just an arbitrary definition which proves the "existence" of the human spirit. A spirit is not a concrete thing, but I think to realize that humans have emotional qualities and unique personalities and to call this our spirit is perfectly fair.
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Sam, at 1:04 PM
I do not think that you were "being an asshole" at all.
I guess what I mean is that I view all forms of superstition as inherently terrible, and judging by what you're saying, you do not. The problem with "belief in god or other intangibles" as you put it, is not that horrible things have been done in their name, it's that the very existence of said belief is superstition, a mystification, something by its very nature which is a hindrance to human freedom. Thus, rejection of such things in all forms is what I call for. There has never, ever been an occasion when mystification has "done great good", in all scenarios it has been a barrier to emancipation. Superstition rests on the fear, fear is never good; in the communist world which is my desire humanity will finally be able to live without fear of anything.
Anyhow, I am a filthy materialist, so I would strongly dispute the idea that "the spiritual" changes human history. The interaction of human force with nature is what produces history, not ideas or intangibles.
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Jake R., at 1:30 PM
"There has never, ever been an occasion when mystification has "done great good"..."
- For many societies spirituality has helped define their cultural values in positive ways. The Native Americans had a healthy respect for the environment, which was born of superstition. They believed in a whole pantheon of deities who managed the various parts of the natural world, and they respected them, and never took natural phenomena for granted. This lead to a healthy relationship between nature and humanity which is not present in our society. I would consider that a good thing. Also, modern nature writers like John Muir and Emerson have literally inspired millions of people to put spiritual value in natural beauty, to revere nature, which lead to the propular movement to establish wilderness areas and helped the national park movement, which in turn inspired a whole bunch of other countries to follow suit. So spirituality has saved millions of acres of land that would now be strip malls or suburbs. I consider that a good thing.
"Superstition rests on the fear, fear is never good"
- Fear can be really really good. If we didnt fear lions, they would eat us, so in that sense fear is an evolutionary tool for survival. I would agree though that it isnt good to fear unnessesarily, and to live in fear is not fun, but of what worldy importance are our petty desires of convenience?
"in the communist world which is my desire humanity will finally be able to live without fear of anything. "
- Would that be good?
"To the mouse, snow means freedom from want and fear, but for the rough-legged hawk a thaw means freedom from want and fear"- Aldo Leapold.
There is a struggle inherent in nature where all organisms fear what may kill them, and there is nothing wrong with that. What consequence would a freedom from fear entail? I see visages of utopian thinking in that desire, and utopian thinking is very dangerous. People can easily become blinded by their vision for a perfect society and cause great harm. No one species can have their own “perfect” society where nothing goes wrong.
You have to accept your fear and deal with it yourself.
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Anonymous, at 6:31 PM
No, fear is always antagonistic to human freedom. Native American tribes' relationship with nature was far from idyllic in many cases, although the situation varies depending on which group; while it is true that their societies were as a whole far less damaging to the planet than our current one, they most certainly did not live in harmony with nature, they were most probably responsible for ecological catastrophes on the continent. The idea that indigenous people somehow had some type of harmonic relationship with their environment is a false one. And John Muir was responsible for actions that caused great suffering for indigenous people, as you probably know. It wasn't "spirituality" which "saved" forests, it was either the hard struggles of activists on its behalf, or it was the goodwill of corporate/government officials who might be naturalists and saw the preservation of certain areas as in their own best interest.
And even if indigenous groupings' spirituality promoted a healthier respect for nature, that doesn't mean that that spirituality was beneficial. I am concerned with human freedom; superstition and fear repress this. Fear is but an emotion, as such it will be present to a certain extent as long as people walk the planet, unfortunately. However it is mostly unnecessary.
"Of what worldly importance are our petty desires of convenience?" The answer to that question for me would be everything. Human desire is everything, and it is as far from petty as it can possibly be, it is all that matters.
I do not think utopianism is dangerous, far from it. Now, one can disagree as to what precisely the term "utopianism" means, but I think it's acquired the "dangerous" label largely through the efforts of capitalist bastards who want to extinguish all hopes of possibilities beyond the prevailing generalized misery.
Anyhow, I'm probably a little incoherent right now and shouldn't be writing, I just got back from passing out at Devin's while watching some Steven Seagal movie, so I'm quite bewildered.
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Jake R., at 3:28 AM
I see the spirit as being something internal, not fear of the external. Human spirit, our own intrinsic value, to me can be seen as encompassing all non-physical desires. I desire to feed my spirit, meaning I wish for emotional health. Of course recognizing "spirits" that exist outside of humanity is superstitious, but spirituality does not necessarily imply this.
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Sam, at 1:13 PM
I can't speak for Native Americans as a whole, but the tribes we studied in our class (Quinalt, Quiliutte, Makah, Haida, Colville, Umatilla and Yakama) all lived in harmony with nature. They respeceted all of life and believed that all plants and animals had souls. They never took more than they needed, and always considered the whole ecosystem in every action. if that isn't harmony, I dont know what is.
I know that the most common argument to this claim is that natives burned forests to clear land for farming, and that they were not so low-impact as we might romantisize them to be. it is true that they altered the landspace often, but the important thing to note is that they never over -used land. If they burned a forest, they would plant their own berry-shrubs of whatever, and then let it grow out forever. They never altered land twice. If the Quinalt took bark from a cedar tree, even just a small amount, they would never take from that tree again. This stewardship of land had been practised by natives for thousands of years, and the land was so healthy that European settlers thought it "untamed" and "wild" when in fact it had been altered by man.
As far as John Muir, yes the park service has ousted tribes from their land, but frankly I really dont know how many or to what end. Someone brought that up in class the other day, but they were just wondering. Do you know the specifics?
As to the activists, why did they desire to save the forests? A great deal of forest activists back in the early 1900s and even today see nature as sacred. Read The Monkey Wrench Gang again and take note as to why the people care. Come on a BARK hike sometime and listen to the Earth-Firsters talk about the "essence" of the forest. Some of the most active forest advocates of the early 20th century like Aldo Leopold, who pretty much invented the word "ecology" as we now use it, was very spiritual, and he was pivotal in the passage of the Wilderness Act of 1964. Muir, of course was spititual; he found God and the temples of heaven in the mountains. Also some less known, but equally important activists like Bob Marshall, a socialist, and Howard Zahniser(both founders of The Wilderness Society), a forest lobbyist (dont let that title mislead you, his heart was in it) both cared about forests on a very spiritual level.
Regarding Sam's posts about the internal and external spirit, I agree that the spirit is something internal, but not reserved for humanity, because we are are no different than animals. Only because we have these big rationing brains do we sometimes think that we are different. This view that everything living has a spirit isnt really superstitious. Its just an idea.
As far as this revence to desire that you all seem to have, I am a little confused. I read things like,
"Human desire is everything, and it is as far from petty as it can possibly be, it is all that matters."
and wonder how that can be true. I read a book for class called Land Of Desire by William Leach, and he details how american culture has been fundamentally encouraged by capitilism to foster desire so that people would buy more. He shows how desire has been manufactured by advertising, turning it into the most primal of values we have today. So if you think we should follow our desires, is that your thinking, our someone elses? As Americans, as radical as we might believe ourselves to be, are still a product of our surroundings. If you provided everything that is desired to a person, they just want more. The satiation of desire just fosters more desire, which contributes to the decadence of our modern society. Desire is a profoundly capitalistic notion. I would argue that we need to rid ourselves of desire.
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Anonymous, at 9:29 PM
It's not a question of whether or not indigenous people in their superstitions endow creatures with souls and such, it's a question of looking at the actual effects of the human population in the North American continent prior to colonization. From what I know, considerable evidence suggests that there occured massive changes in the enivironment brought about by human action, and multiple extinctions of species. Whatever their superstitions, indigenous folks, being human, would have found it quite impossible to maintain a state of perfect harmony with nature while continuing to survive.
As far as John Muir, I could probably look up specifics, but I don't really care to. I also am pretty sure that the man was quite racist, certainly no one I'd look to for inspiration. The antagonism to indigenous peoples is something which persists within mainstream environmentalism to this very day, groups like World Wildlife Federation promote the designation of certain areas as wildlife reserves, which then means that the indigenous peoples who lived in that are for thousands of years are kicked out.
I will repeat again, I see that many people emphasize the difference between spirituality and religion. I don't really see a difference, and even if there is, I reject both. Such matters do not concern me, although this is largely a matter of personal preference and is not all that important in the long run most likely. I will retain an unrelenting hostility to all superstitions and mystifications of any variety, no matter how concerned they may be with "sustainability."
And with regards to desire, I think an ascetic disdain for material comforts or "conveniences" reflects and extremely privileged position. One can only speak derisively of such things if one has had no experience without them. What I seek to propagate is the negation of all asceticism. To seek to rid the world of desire is a horrific goal, instead I wish to see desire liberated from the confines of capital.
The basic idea is that desire as it exists within capitalism is a perverted desire. Someone might think that they sincerely desire a minivan, but this is a false desire, ingrained into their minds through the propaganda efforts of advertising and the all-pervasive nature of capital in everyday life.
We wish to liberate desire from this.
"Moralizing leftists who bemoan the supposed irrationality of capitalism remain blissfully (if not willfully) ignorant about the brilliant logic behind the various mechanisms that capitalists continually refi ne to keep the rest of us bewildered by the allure of fake choices, and enraged by the apparent inevitability of the system that creates those choices. Given such a pervasive and global system, what is authentic desire? When we try to remove individual desire from the collective onslaught of what the Situationists called “the Spectacular-Commodity Economy,” what are we left with? The pursuit of pleasure and/or the avoidance of discomfort is not nearly descriptive enough to give us an inkling of what is authentic, radically subjective, desire. Flamboyant self-indulgence is clearly not what we mean when we discuss desire.
In order to begin liberating desire from the parameters and confi nes of economics, repetition, conformity, hierarchy, and bureaucracy (or capitalism and the state, for those who prefer slogans and other forms of distinctly uninspired and unimaginative terms) we need to look at what humans have in common outside those realms. A yearning for sociability; the need for companionship, friendship, kinship, and love; our attraction to intelligent activities that facilitate what it means to be human… these are the foundations and processes of real desire. None of these things are, nor can they possibly be, facilitated by the greed and atomization required by capitalism, and the crushing fear and alienation required by statecraft. Each day we are forced to acquiesce to, comply with, and—yes—reproduce, this system of domination, exploitation, and destruction is another day our desires are thwarted. In order to liberate our desires it is necessary to remove the obstacles that hinder what brings us happiness, to destroy that which destroys us. To arm our desires means to use any and all means, any and all resources, at our disposal to make that happen. Self-theory, self-organization, critical solidarity, voluntary cooperation, and mutual aid are but a few of the tools we can utilize to help propel us toward a better tomorrow."
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Jake R., at 10:15 PM
Okay, I guess I'll add my impoverished two cents to the delirium
Bertrand Russell in 1949 spelled out his feelings on religion as such:
"As a philosopher, if I were speaking to a purely philosophic audience I should say that I ought to describe myself as an Agnostic, because I do not think that there is a conclusive argument by which one prove that there is not a God. On the other hand, if I am to convey the right impression to the ordinary man in the street I think that I ought to say that I am an Atheist, because, when I say that I cannot prove that there is not a God, I ought to add equally that I cannot prove that there are not the Homeric gods." ("Am I an Atheist or an Agnostic?)
Now, as Jake was saying earlier, the problem with religion, and this holds true for spirituality as well, is that there is no evidence for it. There's also no evidence against it, but as Jake says, in a situation like spirituality, the burden of evidence is on the person claiming that spirits exist.
Guy responded to this (in my opinion perfectly rational assertion) as such:
“From my perspective, the idea of a spirit is valid because of the propensity of other people who believe likewise. I know that i cant prove anything, but also you cant prove anything. Everyone thought the earth was flat, etc. before someone went around the world. It is a common rational view that god, the spirit, the soul, all the intangibles of our conciousness, dont exist. but accepted views are sometimes very wrong. And I think that statement can apply to both sides of the argument. So really, it doesnt matter whether or not we believe in their existance. My interest with the spiritual is its power to change history.”
An idea is not valid because it is commonly held. An example that might hit close to home is the fact that something like 70% of the U.S. population still believes that Saddam Hussein was “personally responsible” for September 11. The belief that the Earth was flat was ended in the time of the Greeks, long before anyone went around the world. The difference between ideas about the curvature of the Earth and religion is that the former is based on massive amounts of readily available, verifiable evidence, while the latter is an article of faith.
And we can’t ignore reality just because we believe it will serve positive social goals. So we can’t discount peak oil because it doesn’t fit in with this idea or that, just as we can’t discount reality in the service of religion or spirituality. This doesn’t mean you can’t be spiritual (far from it), just don’t allow religious or spiritual beliefs to keep you from recognizing certain problems in the material world-that is, don’t have dogmas.
All of this probably seems pretty banal, so I guess I’ll turn to the specifics of the arguments. I don’t know anything about Muir, so I can’t say anything about that, but I actually agree to some extent with Guy on the issue of Native American societies. It’s true that many were destructive, violent, etc, but many were actually surprisingly egalitarian and environmentally conscious and so on. However, I don’t think we should idolize these societies, just recognize that their social organization could be helpful for thinking about future societies, to some small extent.
I don’t think desire is really the best or only basis on which a future society should be founded. Nor is fear or superstition. Nor spirituality. So in that area I’m not really in agreement with either of you, because I feel that society should be organized on the basis of other principles.
And Sam doesn’t really go by the traditional definition of spirituality, but that’s fine.
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Unknown, at 11:16 PM
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Jake R., at 11:37 PM
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Jake R., at 11:39 PM
No, I would argue that you "can't be spiritual". It is mistaken to assume that you can compartmentalize the different aspects of your thought, so that you have your irrational, superstitious, spiritual components in one area, and your logical components in another, and they do not mesh. Your commitment to spirituality or irrationality will spill over to other areas, it affects everything. It can't be set aside, or kept away from other areas. I advocate an attitude of resolute, uncomprising, intolerant hostility to all superstitious bullshit.
"Ideas arise from concrete conditions to become partially embodied in social classes and give rise to further interrelations between the spiral of real and ideal, content and form. This is the dialectic to which Marx gave a firm materialist basis in the developing process of production. As society develops, the possibilities for the individual development of man become greater and greater, but the conflict of classes becomes sharper and sharper. We stand today at an extreme of these interrelated phenomena of social development." - C.L.R. James, 1944
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Jake R., at 11:41 PM
spir·i·tu·al (spr-ch-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.
I personally approve of #2, and kinda #1. As long as mind and emotions cannot be explained (clearly and understandably) in completely material terms, what other choice do we have?
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Sam, at 12:03 AM
John Muir was definetley not rascist. He was frightened of the roaming blacks who frequently waylaid travellers when he walked to the gulf of Mexico, but he was fearing for his life there. He was enthralled by the natives of the Sierras, and he spent a great deal of time with them learning about their culture. He was sometimes dissapointed when he saw examples of assimilated natives, and he had profound respect for them. It is true that he was rather antagonistic towards people, but thats just how he was; he just didnt like people really. He liked nature. Oh, and for sure there are some pretty messed up environmental groups today who think they can decide what is "right" for tribes. No question there.
Also, I never said the Native's interaction was "perfect" it just wasnt unharmonious. As to species extincion and widespread ecological harm caused by natives, I have never heard anything of the sort. I would love to lean about it though, if you know anything more.
I am with Natty is recognizing the dangerous tendancy to idiolize the Native Americans as a bad one, as they had their faults just like everybody, and some of them did some horrible stuff, but it is interesting and I think worthwhile to compare our societies to a degree.
About desire: I guess that basically we agree. We both want to break free of capitalistic forms of it, it's just our approach that is different. I know my approach to ridding the psyche of desire is priviliged, as I can not deny my status as a white male living in the world's most powerful country. Neither can anyone. I want to get rid of material desire, not desire for the worthy things in life like peace, love, etc. I think people need to be passionate, so I'm with you in saying that "We wish to liberate desire." 100%
But as a privileged white male, would it not be good for me and other like me to stop buying so much worthless shit? If my asceticism bothers you, I want to know why, other than the fact that is a priviliged mindset. I don't want to force anybody to follow what I believe is a better lifestyle for myself.
As far as spirituality, I think we have exhausted that discussion. I agree with Natty in saying that spirituality should never blind us to material reality. But I still am a spiritual person. We disagree, but thats ok, maybe we'll get back to it sometime later.
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Anonymous, at 12:06 AM
I don't approve of #2. Souls do not exist.
Muir's thought had contradictory tendencies. But he was undoubtedly racist in many aspects, especially towards Native Americans, as were virtually all people in his era. He once said "The worst thing about them (the natives) is their uncleanliness. Nothing wild is unclean." etc.
As I said, I am a materialist, and an intransigent one at that. Material desire is not something to be rejected, it is natural and necessary. A world without fear of starvation, of dying of disease, where one's basic needs are completely satisfied, is the basis from which all of my visions of the future must flower. Thus material desire, i.e. recognition of the necessity of meeting all needs and living in a world of beauty, cannot be spurned.
Anyhaps, I really shouldn't have mentioned the part about privilege. That's entirely irrelevant and should not be even brought up, it borders on illogical. I regret doing so.
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Jake R., at 12:32 AM
Though of course 'desire' as such ceases to be much of a factor materially once all basic needs have been met.
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Jake R., at 9:07 AM
Soul's do exist. What are you talking about?
soul
n.
1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
"OFTEN conceived as an immaterial identity." So you don't HAVE TO envision some ghost-like thing living inside us, soul can simply denote the internal factors that make us all unique and give us deeper desires than simply filling our guts. I know alot of people who use the term this way. Of course, it can also mean other things, which is why I personally won't use such words as soul and spirituality, but given certain definitions of these words there is no way we can reject them outright (much like words such as "communism," eh?) I don't know about yall, but I am not an android, and I got soul.
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Sam, at 1:29 PM
Nein. If by animating and vital principle you mean electronic and chemical impulses within the brain, then maybe, but there is no immaterial aspect of emotion, thought, etc. and there is no way such a thing can be credited with human faculties and traits.
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Jake R., at 2:07 PM
"Electronic and chemical impulses within the brain" is exactly what I mean. This is what the soul is, scientifically speaking. Some people just consider it much easier and less dehumanizing to say "soul" then "electronic and chemical impulses within the brain."
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Sam, at 5:38 PM
I just got a job!!!!!
Oh and as to the soul thing, Sam I agree. Jake, you are too rational. It takes the joy of life away to rationalize everything.
I would like to know where you got that quote about Muir, it seems a little ambiguous.
And to Jake's desire for a perfect world, I have so much to say about that that i dont really want to get into it right now, but i will later.
Ok, homework time.
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Anonymous, at 8:45 PM
"Jake, you are too rational."
Yeah, I don't think you can be too rational. And there's a difference between being rational and rationalizing things, in fact the two phrases aren't even similar.
I don't know if I'm a materialist, because I'm still not entirely clear on what that means, but anyway, being rational is really the only way I know of to understand the world around me, so I'm not going to abandon it. Being rational certainly doesn't mean you can't have fun.
Anyway, I'm getting a tad bored. but yeah, I'm more with Jake, just not as extreme: por ejemplo, I don't think there's any evidence that allowing yourself to have a spiritual side will have a spillover effect elsewhere. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I just don't really have that side. Sure, I have fear about death, I think everyone does, but I'm not going to abandon reality because I'm afraid of it.
I appreciate fictional things that have spiritual connotations: perhaps why I like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings. I can allow myself to get sucked into those worlds for a few hours, but I recognize that it's fiction, in the same sense that I recognize there's no evidence that religion or spirituality is not also fiction.
And I don't think you can conclusively say "there's no such thing as a soul." That's why I'm agnostic: you can't know. But at the same time I recognize there's no evidence for these things, so I have more atheist leanings.
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Unknown, at 9:58 PM
I said absolutely nothing about a perfect world. Perfection is not something I strive for. But I do not have a view that labels utopianism as dangerous, in fact I think quite the contrary.
Yes, I am very into rationality.
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Jake R., at 10:36 PM
I don't care if I'm seen as "cowardly" or "irresolute" because those terms are basically meaningless to me. I say I'm an agnostic on perfectly rational grounds, it has nothing to do with superstition. The point is that there is no way to disprove religion or spirituality, just as there is no way to prove it. To say that you can conclusively show something is true regardless of such questions is the essence of superstition: I'm simply saying you can't know, because it doesn't deal with observable phenomena.
Now, having said that, anyone can make up any crazy idea and say it exists outside our present understanding of the universe, and the same will hold for it: there's no way to disprove it. So I'm obviously extremely skeptical.
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Unknown, at 2:18 AM
No, the basis exists for disproving its existence, this is how logic works. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. If there is no evidence whatsoever for a claim, indeed if all evidence points to the contrary of a claim (as it does in this case), then one must conclude, given existing knowledge that such a claim is false. This is basic logic, nothing too fancy here. To ignore this then, is to play into the hands of religion and give it added legitimacy.
And I do think terms like cowardice matters, in that I think courage is a good thing. Religion must not be tolerated in any forms, to do so means abandoning any liberatory vision that you may have.
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Jake R., at 7:41 AM
So, logically, agnosticism is actually an irrational position, in that it posits the possibility of the reality of religion, thus giving it legitimacy which it does not have in any way.
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Jake R., at 7:50 AM
Unless you have stumbled upon some principles of logic that escaped Bertrand Russell or other great logicians, I will have to stay in my current cowardly position, which is that while there is no way to disprove the existence of a deity (or deities), the absence of any evidence makes it highly unlikely.
I don't care whether you're willing to "tolerate" this, nor do I think anyone else should.
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Unknown, at 2:32 PM
Whatever. As long as you're willing to destroy religion.
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Jake R., at 3:43 PM
However I am being quite logical. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim, always. It is not up to atheists to prove that god doesn't exist, it is up to religious people to prove that their superstition is true. They cannot, and in the hundreds of years that this debate has gone on, they have never been able to even come close to doing so. This matter has been looked at intensively for a very long time, and they have always been proven wrong. Thusly, one must conclude against them.
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Jake R., at 3:47 PM
That's been exactly my point all along, except for the "one must conclude against them," because absolute proof is always impossible, except maybe in mathematics.
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Unknown, at 5:35 PM
One must conclude against them is the whole point though. The whole point is that religion must be eliminated, and of course this cannot be disconnected from the broader aim of eliminating capital.
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Jake R., at 8:11 PM
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